What is codependency + what’s just “marriage?”
When you’ve been with the same partner for 15+ years, you’re bound to depend on one another. But how much is too much?
My husband, Brad, has been under a lot of pressure lately. I won’t spill the tea on his specific stressors here (mostly because he reads this newsletter - per Substack’s analytics), but he’s been struggling for a few months and like any partner should, I’ve been trying to find ways to support him.
We’ve been together 15 years. And over the course of those years, we’ve mostly (coincidentally and conveniently) took turns being in crisis…except when there’s a global pandemic and then we are both allowed to nosedive into anxiety and depression. Only seems fair.
Any time either of us is struggling with work, a mental health valley, or a friendship/family issue, it adds tension to the house. The one in pain will dramatically sigh. Fall asleep on the couch. Snap at the other person. Stop showering. Numb out playing a video game (Brad) or watching Seinfeld reruns (me).
When it’s Brad’s turn to be in-crisis, it’s hard for me not to fall into “The Well”1 that he likes to sit in sometimes. I want to help! I want to fix! I want to problem-solve! (Although, I do not want to watch him play video games).
The question I keep coming back to is: Even though I can’t control or change Brad’s feelings (booooooo), it feels tone-deaf and selfish to not let his struggles affect me at all.
Like, “Hey babe…I’m sorry you’re so anxious that you can hardly breathe and haven’t eaten all day….but I’mma head out and go see Poor Things with my friend because that’s what I need right now! Be back later!”
OF COURSE I feel sad when he feels sad. Or angry when he feels angry. And yet…am I supposed to crawl into The Well with him? Am I supposed to starve myself of joy and levity? Is the only way I can show true care and solidarity to take on his emotions as my own? Do we BOTH need to be depressed to show that we are supporting one another?
Here’s a short definition of codependency from Psychology Today: Codependency is a dysfunctional relationship dynamic where one person assumes the role of “the giver,” sacrificing their own needs and well-being for the sake of the other, “the taker.” The bond in question doesn’t have to be romantic; it can occur just as easily between parent and child, friends, and family members.
I wonder if marriage fosters codependency by design. We are quite literally depending on one another ALL THE TIME. Not just to cook dinners or do the dishes or pick up Tylenol + Gatorade when someone is sick…we depend on each other to listen, ask questions, witness our experiences and validate our feelings. So where do those boundaries start and stop? What is me? What is him? And if we “take turns” being “the giver” and “the taker,” then is that just partnership and taking care of one another?
Last week, I was listening to the Huberman Labs podcast. One of my favorite parenting experts/psychologists, Dr. Becky Kennedy, was a guest. And even though they were mostly talking about parenting, I found their discussion around boundaries and empathy incredibly relevant to this internal debate I’ve been having.
Huberman: You said earlier, one of the jobs of being a parent is having boundaries and I'd like to drill into that a little bit more; how do you view boundaries but also empathy…I confess I'm a bit obsessed with old school psychoanalytic theory, not as the be all, end all of psychology, but it also suggests this other relationship. Like, “I'm a person; I have a self. You're a person; you have a self.” This is the opposite of codependency. Obviously dependency and two people being “codependent” can be healthy in the context of relying on one another. But as I understand it, when one person has a self and another person doesn't have a self, or this notion of merging not just in romantic relationships, but child-parent relationships, like “I'm best friends with my mom or dad.” Is that a good thing?
Dr. Becky then goes on to give a few examples of boundaries and also explains how setting a boundary and using empathy to validate emotions are not as at-odds as we may think.
Dr. Becky: Boundaries and empathy always go together. I think they’re partners and they’re not actually at odds. Because as soon as my kid is upset, what I would say to them is, “Oh, you wanted to jump on the couch. It's not as much fun on the floor. Oh, you really wanted to watch another show.” It sounds crazy because you're like, “Wait, why am I empathizing with that feeling? They just kind of disobeyed.” No, they're two different things. I'm doing my job in setting a boundary. They're actually doing their job in feeling their feelings. That's actually their job. The only way you can ever learn to regulate a feeling is through feeling the feeling. So they're doing their job. Now I'm going to validate. And this is how kids learn. Emotion regulation, boundaries. They feel. I validate. I hold the boundary over and over and over…I think one of the issues is that most parenting approaches have one or the other, and I think they're both very incomplete strategies. If you just lead with rules…I don't know who said this, it definitely wasn't me, but it goes, “Rules without relationship lead to rebellion.” Yeah, that's what happens, right? So that's not good. But I see this day and age, we've swung the other direction. It is also not a complete parenting strategy when your kid's jumping on the couch and you think that's dangerous, and to say, ‘Oh, you really want to jump, jump, jump. Such big feelings!’ Like that is not what kids need. I think kids crave boundaries, and they crave feeling seen and understood, because as kids are growing up, I think the questions they're always asking parents, even though, of course, they never say this: Am I real? Am I safe? Every interaction, that's what they're asking us. This is the reason why we have to validate their feelings when they're upset, even though they're just upset that their string cheese broke.
This makes so much sense to me. I think because deep down I believe having strong personal boundaries actually makes it EASIER to have a functional, authentic relationship. When you’re not just trying to people-please and can listen to your own unique needs/feelings while holding space for your partner’s DIFFERENT needs/feelings…I mean…that’s the mystical, magical combination that ALL relationships require: boundaries + empathy.
“I love you and I care about you, and here’s how much I can give you with my whole heart.” Anything outside of that scope that doesn’t feel good to give leads (inevitably) to resentment.
Dr. Becky has a great metaphor she uses to explain what healthy boundaries look like (again, she’s referring to a parent/child relationship but this example works for any two people who care about one another): a tennis court.
“I want you to picture yourself on one side of a tennis court and put your daughter on the other side of the tennis court. There’s that net in between, or maybe there’s a glass wall. You can see your daughter, but there’s a boundary or barrier there. Now picture your daughter being sad. Going back to whose feeling is whose, say to yourself: “My daughter is sad. The sadness is in my daughter's body. I am over here, looking at my daughter who is sad. Those are her feelings. I can care about my daughter without making her feelings enter my body and joining in the feeling with her.”
I’m my own person. Brad is his own person. Acknowledging this is the opposite of codependency.
He likes big action movies. I like Bravo.
He likes blue cheese. The smell makes me want to fucking barf.
He likes loud metal/punk/rockabilly music. I like quiet Joni Mitchell whispers.
We feel overstimulated and overwhelmed by very different things. We have different core wounds. Our pet peeves and frustrations vary greatly.
But we can rely on one another. Acknowledge our humanity and uniqueness. Believe one another and support one another and our different needs, styles, triggers, fears and experiences. Understand that neither of us is feeling something “right” and the other is feeling it “wrong.”
Our job is to listen to each other, support one another and also notice our own needs and speak up for them. It’s endless effort…but it’s also the only way to stay connected for so many years and throughout the obstacles of life.
Because there are SO many obstacles.
Have you ever seen the movie, Don’t Think Twice? It’s about a group of friends and a couple who all work/play in an Improv group. There’s a really great scene near the end that had Brad and me BOTH sobbing in the theater in which one character sits in “The Well” as shorthand for depressive episodes. We now use “sitting in the well” as shorthand to describe depression. Also, can you tell I just learned how to use footnotes on Substack? Very exciting.
Just what I needed to hear today, thanks for writing this!
Thank you for quoting the tennis court metaphor, I needed that today. Also, you are the second person named Elyse to recommend that podcast episode to me so I guess I better listen.