Love the conversation. I am as staunch a feminist as you will ever find. I have raised two young men, both "soft." Patriarchy is awful for them as well. They are not nerds; they are very supportive of women; they are smart and accomplished. And yet, dating is horrible for them. They aren't unattractive, but there is more to the majority of women liking certain men than many observers are willing to admit. They both also experienced bullying by girls--in one case severe bullying. The internet hasn't exactly made girls nice. I am not excusing the disgusting behavior of Jamie, or any boy trapped in the manosphere but I am a little shocked at how little discussion we are having about how to support the young men who don't go down that path--life is not picnic in this environment. BTW you should look at stats around dating apps. The 80/20 ratio there is real. That's where the numbers come from. They are scams.
Thanks for your thoughts and for sharing a bit about your own experiences and family.
We absolutely NEED to be discussing and actively working to solve how we support young men and help ensure they don't go down the path of radicalization. We need to make sure they feel safe being themselves and are getting true support from friends/family/communities when they feel wounded, excluded, or rejected. I really do like that whole comic I posted around the Male Loneliness Epidemic (I only posted a few screens though)...I think it explains where men are missing the mark socially and how we can all help them build better connections (although really, it's kind of their own interior work to do).
As for that 80/20 statistic...it makes no sense to me. If hetero women are only attracted to 20% of men, then why are so many men married/coupled up? Women just date and marry men they are not attracted to? I don't get it...
I'm talking about the number of dates men get from dating apps, not the population at large. Are you aware of the ratio of men to women on the apps, esp. under 30? I don't think most people over 40 really understand the current dating dynamic of the Instagram/Tik Tok generation which is heavily reliant on these apps. We know from Anxious Generation and other research that social media has harmed young women significantly. Isn't it possible they have some internal work to do too? That they are missing the mark as well? That their own addiction to social media prevents them from understanding how to be kind and move beyond physical appearance when it comes to dating? You are blaming young men 100% for these issues. Again, in no way excusing or promoting misogyny or anything like it. But, my experience as a parent and recently retired high school teacher strongly supports that young women are not happy. Perhaps, it's a bigger problem than just young men.
I don't work for a dating app and have no access to their data, but it makes sense that certain profiles for men and women would have higher engagement metrics based on photos and what they post. In the context of the show (which was what I was addressing), teenage boys are blurting out left and right that 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men, which is statistically untrue.
I also think this conversation is conflating young adults (aged 18-20s) with children (aged 13-18) which, obviously is not apples to apples. Teens need to be protected and it's our job as a society to find ways to help support them and get them access to healthier coping skills, tools, and environments. Young adults need to learn as well, but as they grow up and mature the onus is more on them to do the work themselves and create healthier systems and supports to lean on when they feel vulnerable.
I think it's safe to say that we ALL have internal work to do and that has nothing to do with age or gender. Many people cannot cope with their feelings and then turn to maladaptive behaviors to self-soothe (drinking, trolling strangers online, bullying, whatever). That is not gendered.
Anyway... this is all a far bigger issue then just, men are messed up and they need to figure it out. That is so oversimplified and I hope that was not your takeaway from this.
Why don't you even mention ways to prevent bullying, esp. on social media? Both young men and women are victims--victims of the social media companies. I have stories about it that would horrify you (including bullying me, the teacher) and a lot of it is young women harming other young women. Our kids are growing up in a culture where their lives are too hidden from adult guidance and it's leading to real harm. I walk away from the show thinking parents need to do a better job of supporting their children, esp. getting them off of social media.
Honestly I think *you* should write this piece about social media and ways it impacts students and how to prevent it. Not only is it a relevant topic, but you've had a first-row seat to it as a parent and recently retired teacher. Thanks for reading my article!
Fair on writing an article. I have through about it many times. But, I have zero confidence that an article addressing how young women are participating in and contributing to a toxic high school environment will be positively received. I've seen other articles. The responses are 90% denial and attack. It's easier to blame men and misogyny than the underlying cultural issue with social media. Less parenting required.
It might not be well received bc on its face it comes off as victim-blaming…. But maybe I’m missing some of the nuance that would be commensurate with a long format article. I hope if you do write a piece on how women are perpetuating toxic masculinity (even if just at the high school level), you come back to share it here so I can better understand how that too is women’s fault.
Elyse, this is a great exploration of a complex topic, and I appreciate some food for thought here.
Thanks, friend 💜
Love the conversation. I am as staunch a feminist as you will ever find. I have raised two young men, both "soft." Patriarchy is awful for them as well. They are not nerds; they are very supportive of women; they are smart and accomplished. And yet, dating is horrible for them. They aren't unattractive, but there is more to the majority of women liking certain men than many observers are willing to admit. They both also experienced bullying by girls--in one case severe bullying. The internet hasn't exactly made girls nice. I am not excusing the disgusting behavior of Jamie, or any boy trapped in the manosphere but I am a little shocked at how little discussion we are having about how to support the young men who don't go down that path--life is not picnic in this environment. BTW you should look at stats around dating apps. The 80/20 ratio there is real. That's where the numbers come from. They are scams.
Thanks for your thoughts and for sharing a bit about your own experiences and family.
We absolutely NEED to be discussing and actively working to solve how we support young men and help ensure they don't go down the path of radicalization. We need to make sure they feel safe being themselves and are getting true support from friends/family/communities when they feel wounded, excluded, or rejected. I really do like that whole comic I posted around the Male Loneliness Epidemic (I only posted a few screens though)...I think it explains where men are missing the mark socially and how we can all help them build better connections (although really, it's kind of their own interior work to do).
As for that 80/20 statistic...it makes no sense to me. If hetero women are only attracted to 20% of men, then why are so many men married/coupled up? Women just date and marry men they are not attracted to? I don't get it...
I'm talking about the number of dates men get from dating apps, not the population at large. Are you aware of the ratio of men to women on the apps, esp. under 30? I don't think most people over 40 really understand the current dating dynamic of the Instagram/Tik Tok generation which is heavily reliant on these apps. We know from Anxious Generation and other research that social media has harmed young women significantly. Isn't it possible they have some internal work to do too? That they are missing the mark as well? That their own addiction to social media prevents them from understanding how to be kind and move beyond physical appearance when it comes to dating? You are blaming young men 100% for these issues. Again, in no way excusing or promoting misogyny or anything like it. But, my experience as a parent and recently retired high school teacher strongly supports that young women are not happy. Perhaps, it's a bigger problem than just young men.
I don't work for a dating app and have no access to their data, but it makes sense that certain profiles for men and women would have higher engagement metrics based on photos and what they post. In the context of the show (which was what I was addressing), teenage boys are blurting out left and right that 80% of women are attracted to 20% of men, which is statistically untrue.
I also think this conversation is conflating young adults (aged 18-20s) with children (aged 13-18) which, obviously is not apples to apples. Teens need to be protected and it's our job as a society to find ways to help support them and get them access to healthier coping skills, tools, and environments. Young adults need to learn as well, but as they grow up and mature the onus is more on them to do the work themselves and create healthier systems and supports to lean on when they feel vulnerable.
I think it's safe to say that we ALL have internal work to do and that has nothing to do with age or gender. Many people cannot cope with their feelings and then turn to maladaptive behaviors to self-soothe (drinking, trolling strangers online, bullying, whatever). That is not gendered.
Anyway... this is all a far bigger issue then just, men are messed up and they need to figure it out. That is so oversimplified and I hope that was not your takeaway from this.
Why don't you even mention ways to prevent bullying, esp. on social media? Both young men and women are victims--victims of the social media companies. I have stories about it that would horrify you (including bullying me, the teacher) and a lot of it is young women harming other young women. Our kids are growing up in a culture where their lives are too hidden from adult guidance and it's leading to real harm. I walk away from the show thinking parents need to do a better job of supporting their children, esp. getting them off of social media.
Honestly I think *you* should write this piece about social media and ways it impacts students and how to prevent it. Not only is it a relevant topic, but you've had a first-row seat to it as a parent and recently retired teacher. Thanks for reading my article!
Fair on writing an article. I have through about it many times. But, I have zero confidence that an article addressing how young women are participating in and contributing to a toxic high school environment will be positively received. I've seen other articles. The responses are 90% denial and attack. It's easier to blame men and misogyny than the underlying cultural issue with social media. Less parenting required.
It might not be well received bc on its face it comes off as victim-blaming…. But maybe I’m missing some of the nuance that would be commensurate with a long format article. I hope if you do write a piece on how women are perpetuating toxic masculinity (even if just at the high school level), you come back to share it here so I can better understand how that too is women’s fault.